tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post1503347305467333846..comments2024-03-28T02:45:03.204-07:00Comments on Antediluvian Salad: Yeah I Said It... Every Sabertooth Image Ever - OBSOLETEDuane Nashhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14467779935085970909noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-17981204924030589042022-01-22T11:58:28.810-08:002022-01-22T11:58:28.810-08:00Brilliant and most inteligent analissis everBrilliant and most inteligent analissis everAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10947334217151685827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-27507409137687226712018-07-16T14:29:26.855-07:002018-07-16T14:29:26.855-07:00Wow, that is pretty harsh Jeffrey Gau.
Unless Dua...Wow, that is pretty harsh Jeffrey Gau. <br />Unless Duane personally insulted or wronged you before, why the personal attacks, are those really needed?<br />Can you not just disagree without getting personal and ugly?<br />You make some good points, but " an unknown Internet denizen struggling with some problematic personality traits and their burgeoning sense of insecurity and lack of self worth." <br />Really dude?<br />I have had the pleasure of meeting Duane, and he's a great dude, and someone I call a friend. <br />Do you know him? Maybe you could show some respect. I feel your negative comment is projecting and it says a whole lot more about you than Duane. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09630838114257894524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-68746001375196716582018-07-16T05:22:09.575-07:002018-07-16T05:22:09.575-07:00This is eerily reminiscent of the unfortunate expe...This is eerily reminiscent of the unfortunate experience I had watching teal deer on Youtube. Very visible dark triad traits, lots of yelling, very pushy, and very little overall science. When I see something properly peer reviewed paper turn up in a well-established, trusted, and respected journal I might be inclined to think there's something to this.<br /><br />Until then, it reminds me of the media frenzy over how apparently a small patch of scaly hide implies that tyrannosaurs had no feathers when even the paper itself that covered this topic didn't say that. There were plenty of attempts at pseudoscientific explanation and even references provided but the end result was as far detached from what a contemporary thinker considers science to be as anything could be.<br /><br />It was just spectacle.<br /><br />This is just spectacle.<br /><br />It's spectacle that'll garner attention, I'm sure. That, however, doesn't make it science. Frankenstein's Monster certainly enjoys its spectacle and purports to be some manner of science, thankfully the author was acquainted with reality and cognizant of the differences between fictional narrative and scientific journalism. The same can't be said for many journalists these days, publishing their own attempts at a macabre monster under the guise of science.<br /><br />All for the clicks, isn't it?<br /><br />Is this all for the clicks? I felt positively trolled when I was told, in no uncertain terms, that a walrus is neither a mammal nor a carnivore.<br /><br />Sound and fury signifying nothing. Pissing into the wind, so to speak. That's all any of this is until a peer reviewed paper is published in a respectable journal. Until then, this just sounds like what it is -- an unknown Internet denizen struggling with some problematic personality traits and their burgeoning sense of insecurity and lack of self worth.<br /><br />According to sound scientific minds, sabertooth animals did not have flesh sheaths for their tusky canines. This is better suited to a fantasy yarn called Duane's Monster. I do believe you'd have better luck selling this to bookstores as a tale of fright and delight.<br /><br />I'm sorry if this seems harsh, but I'll have no truck with sociopathy. Try a little more science and a whole lot less televangelism.A. DeWolfenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-85151303687608950152017-07-24T17:11:36.584-07:002017-07-24T17:11:36.584-07:00Nah, that is totally unrealistic.Nah, that is totally unrealistic.JHGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01190267345282912562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-16050998618673778012016-12-22T01:26:19.029-08:002016-12-22T01:26:19.029-08:00Hello, ive read the whole thing,
About the topica ...<br />Hello, ive read the whole thing,<br />About the topica you have been covering, first of all, if they did have long lips which cover the fangs it would be, like the comments above, very biteable. Second of all in order for the cat to expose his canines to bite anything it would need the lips to have muscles in them, if muacles were built in the lips it will be seen in the skull (skull shows where muscles touched it) and based on my ressarch no skull indicates this kind of lips. Another reason which i can't really explain is that it will simply be too heavy, and the lips would need to change the whole anatomical structure of the head and snout muscles to support their weight. You have mentioned something about teeth that chew and slice meat need to be covered with saliva, most articles claim that smilodon didnt use his upper fangs for eating at all, that is why hia incisors and other teeth need to be so large as well, he probably only used his canines to kill prey. Another suggestion is that the fangs were constantly licked (yes, licked) with the saber cat tongue to keep them wet, much like some lizards lick their eyes conatantly.<br />Correct me if i am mistaking and sorry for bad english, have a good day and thanks for reading :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00434332205384909839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-78605703646396605362016-09-26T16:30:44.219-07:002016-09-26T16:30:44.219-07:00I'm not sure if this is going to show up as I&...I'm not sure if this is going to show up as I'm having trouble viewing the link. It should be a Lipped Thylacosmilus; http://cmkosemensketchbook.tumblr.com/image/145197289480 "" I suspect that despite their popular image as bare-toothed killers, sabre-toothed mammals had extensive lips covering their upper teeth as well. Here is the famous sabre-toothed marsupial Thylacosmilus, looking more like the pot-bellied, funny-faced...<br /><br />I suspect that despite their popular image as bare-toothed killers, sabre-toothed mammals had extensive lips covering their upper teeth as well. Here is the famous sabre-toothed marsupial Thylacosmilus, looking more like the pot-bellied, funny-faced death-wombat that it probably was.""Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09630838114257894524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-68798397589736301042016-06-06T15:45:57.915-07:002016-06-06T15:45:57.915-07:00I'm sorry, but I don't really agree. Somet...I'm sorry, but I don't really agree. Something about that just seems, off.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-11231539767265493932016-05-28T05:00:55.118-07:002016-05-28T05:00:55.118-07:00Marjonovic
No. :-) I notice you didn't get Pa...<i>Marjonovic</i><br /><br />No. :-) I notice you didn't get <i>Panoplosaurus</i> right either.<br /><br /><i>I would surmise that in Smilodon which was at an extreme range in sabertooth predators for tackling large, tough, and combative prey that having bony projections hanging off of your mandible would be selected against.</i><br /><br />More so than having teeth hanging off of your maxilla?<br /><br />Anyway, I'll wait for the Reisz & Larson paper. :-)<br /><br /><i>they were hunters and knew enough about lions to see it's the female that does the hunting</i><br /><br />That actually varies somewhat between different lion cultures. In some places, males hunt the bigger, more dangerous prey (think cape buffalo) and, IIRC, end up contributing 50 % of the pride's food.David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-4000259971426541322016-05-24T18:37:27.310-07:002016-05-24T18:37:27.310-07:00concerning the possibility that prehistoric people...concerning the possibility that prehistoric people would choose to represent lionesses rather than lions: they were hunters and knew enough about lions to see it's the female that does the hunting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-83723940468364313582016-05-24T12:33:21.563-07:002016-05-24T12:33:21.563-07:00Andrea Cau posted on theropod lips: http://theropo... Andrea Cau posted on theropod lips: http://theropoda.blogspot.com/2016/05/una-soluzione-alla-controversia-sulle.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FaJKG+%28Theropoda%29<br /><br />The key point is that teeth that are covered by lips have a different morphology than those that are exposed. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13426662239643836517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-1981009111621510502016-05-18T23:10:52.234-07:002016-05-18T23:10:52.234-07:00@khalil yeah I try to abstain from getting into pi...@khalil yeah I try to abstain from getting into pissing contests with other researchers. Hey I do things the way I want to and if that means I get less exposure because I want to control how my thoughts, research and art is disseminated then that puts me in a position where I am looked at with suspicion because of "lack of peer review" then I got to eat my lumps. Peer review falls short again and again as I have exposed many times on this blog. I see scientific research moving into a more open, transparent, and collaborative method where numerous people: lay, professional, and multidisciplinary have a voice and input. In short science will move into a more progressive and open realm and I do foresee some push back from career academics.<br /><br />Not to mention the modern academic peer reviewed paper is possibly the most mind numbing and robotic sounding piece of literature devised except for an IKEA instructional pamphlet.<br /><br />@Sam Fritz I thought about this but as I mentioned in the post it really was hard to cover the canines and not have it look like a bulldog. Plus I aesthetically like the bulldog look for its jarring look so I went with it instead of trying too hard to make it look" catty". There is some liberty the artist can take in this manner,<br /><br />@David Marjonovic I would surmise that in Smilodon which was at an extreme range in sabertooth predators for tackling large, tough, and combative prey that having bony projections hanging off of your mandible would be selected against. Extremely tough, elastic, and rugged skin flaps would most likely cover the lower aspect of the tooth from the mandible.Duane Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14467779935085970909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-45099169093263796112016-05-18T08:26:34.954-07:002016-05-18T08:26:34.954-07:00Hi, I'm new, and probably uninformed and not ...Hi, I'm new, and probably uninformed and not qualified to comment here, but the lips in your reconstruction look really floppy like a bulldog, while modern big cats tend to have more muscular, rounded coverings of their canines. I don't really know if this was the case for saber-tooths, and I agree that their fangs should be covered, but probably with more tiger like coverings, rather than a bulldogish floppy covering. If you considered this and there's a reason why you didn't portray it this way, please let me know. Thanks! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02219263081074213898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-20461132168342876272016-05-17T14:59:46.828-07:002016-05-17T14:59:46.828-07:00Wow. I don't understand why people would be so...Wow. I don't understand why people would be so rude and dismisive to you when you clearly back up your claims with large quantities of evidence and examples. How dare they try and label you as anything close to the likes of David "photoshop" Peters. And I think the remark of "awesomebro" is hilarious seeing as how you try to ground things within reality.<br /><br />Another reason why you are my favourite is because you do far more research than any other professional. The most vocal/active researcher besides you is arguably Mark Witton, yet he doesn't produce anything "stunning" (well, as of late that is). I don't mean to put him down or anything though. He's a great man who has (in part) revolutionaized the field of Pterosaurology. But what I mean is that he hasn't theorized anything stunning like you have. The importance of facial display in various "fighting" Dinosaurs, turning Plesiosaurs from cannon fodder to brutal ocean predators that out classed Mosasaurs, "neck boobs" and bulldog "lips" on the suprisingly mammalian Tyrannosaurus rex, "dump truck" Ankylosaurs, thermoregulation in Archosaurs without feathers (which deserves MUCH more research in proffesional literature), more support in favour of the mud crawling, tidal roamer Spinosaurus, vulturine Allosaurus, etc.<br /><br />Ah sorry I wasn't nesecarily talking about cheeks in particular. I'm kind of just saying it in laymen terms, because when I say cheeks or lips, I'm refering to any form of facial integument. From wattles and lips to quills and horns. So then what is most likely then? Do you know of any pictures/artwork that represent what you think is most likely?<br />Iris-Katyayanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06188961246186305190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-45812612907243121772016-05-16T02:35:56.609-07:002016-05-16T02:35:56.609-07:00Thanks khalil I am glad my ideas resonate with you...Thanks khalil I am glad my ideas resonate with you. So often people, including many I respect, are closed off to new ideas or ways of thinking about things. We are indeed in a strange place in paleontology where there is a bit of a push/pull between the "hard" science and quite practical and informed speculation... Indeed I have seen many dismiss me as "speculative fun" or "take him with a grain of salt" or my favorite "too awesomebro". However we'll see who gets the last laugh...<br /><br />No please don't call me the lip master, I don't want to be the master at anything except maybe the master at asking the >right questions<. With regards to ornithischians I have been pulling further and further away from obligate "cheeks" because i think we should differentiate cheeks from "lips" i.e. fleshy structures that border the mouth as opposed to those that close off the oral region. <br /><br />I have to give credit where credit is due Larry Witmer points out that inset tooth rows are not so dramatic in fleshy cheeked mammals and Jaime Headden was very prescient in pointing out that the need for closed cheeks in ornithischians was always just asserted but never proven. For now I will say "lips" yes but "cheeks" at least as we interpret them now, I am leaning towards not quite or at least very different. Hint Panapolosaurus.<br /><br />Stay tuned... and I apologize in advance for not being able to pump these out fast enough as my job is just killing me now but future posts will astound you I promise you this!!Duane Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14467779935085970909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-88881704299150740002016-05-15T18:20:02.939-07:002016-05-15T18:20:02.939-07:00Great job as always Duane! Sorry I haven't bee...Great job as always Duane! Sorry I haven't been vocal online with you recently like I used too. I've been so busy with school I don't have much time. But from what I've learned from your posts on Tyrannosaur and Smilodon lips, they make perfect sense. That's why you are my favourite researcher, simply because you turn speculative/fantastical ideas into a reality (or at least a likely reality) by giving large amounts of evidence and examples in favour of your new theory. Before reading your "Bulldog Rex" post, I always just assumed that it had Komodo Dragon-esque lips, and would have never dreamed of having something similiar to the lips of a domestic dog, let alone mammals in general on good ol' Rexy. But of course, you give a perfectly sound arguement in favour of such a feature. Now I can't get those fallpy Rex lips off of my mind whenever I think about it (in a good way of course). And I've had a problem with Smilodon teeth for years, seeing as how it doesn't make sense for a terrestrial Synapsid to have it's teeth showing like that. Tusks and harden combat teeth like Walrus' aren't a good example in this case, seeing as how they are structurally different to a degree and far different in oveerall use, so I was always stumped on what was going on with those giant saber teeth. But you just reminded me about what the far more likely feature that was going on. Now I have a question for you pertaining to lips. What do you personalyl think is the more likely oral structure on the mouths of Ornithischian Dinosaurs? I.E. Ceratopsians, Hadrosaurs, etc? Which one do you think they had out of these choices?:<br />Fully lipped: http://www.drip.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/head.gif<br />Half lipped like Turtles: http://saurian.maxmediacorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Triceratops-final-concept.png<br />or no lips?: http://pre12.deviantart.net/a126/th/pre/f/2015/275/6/8/triceratops_in_the_flesh_by_eofauna-d9bmvbk.jpg<br />Or is it something else? Or do you not really no for sure? At this point in time, you are pretty much the lip master of Paleontology ;)<br />Iris-Katyayanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06188961246186305190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-65632697212331953832016-05-13T19:44:09.863-07:002016-05-13T19:44:09.863-07:00I don't blame you, alot of them have.I don't blame you, alot of them have. Robert Haannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-30039396077795957042016-05-13T09:26:47.815-07:002016-05-13T09:26:47.815-07:00Damn *edit* I just get confused with all the ol...Damn *edit* I just get confused with all the ol' school 'restlers biting the dust lately. I could have sworn Ric Flair was one of 'em but just got confused. Duane Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14467779935085970909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-11619746017929389312016-05-12T21:34:37.287-07:002016-05-12T21:34:37.287-07:00Umm DUane ? i think its a little too early(pun int...Umm DUane ? i think its a little too early(pun intended) to refer to Ric Flair as the "late" great "Nature Boy". <br /><br />Yet another well thought out post, i have no opinions of my own to add but i will say that BullDog Smilodon actually comes of as a rather handsome design. Robert Haannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-49129642730041505662016-05-11T15:39:29.262-07:002016-05-11T15:39:29.262-07:00Oh, sorry, did not think I was straying off topic ...Oh, sorry, did not think I was straying off topic (seeing how this has to pertain to lips).D-mannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-28425812626378217372016-05-11T09:21:30.170-07:002016-05-11T09:21:30.170-07:00OK D-man last chance before I just start deleting ...OK D-man last chance before I just start deleting your comments for straying too far off topic. You could have just posted this comment on the post it pertains to. I was at SVP 2015 and I disagree with Tracy's interpretation of the foramen. If the skull was tight skinned and croc like why would the foramen take a pronounced dip along the lower jaw that lines up precisely with where the longest teeth from the upper jaw penetrate? And if his tactile faced scenario is true why would there not be a more random skew of foramen along the whole head but instead the consistently line up in a manner that suggests they were providing innervation and blood flow to something? Finally Ford casts a very wide net when he characterizes theropods as rugose skulled. Some were more than others and it is very far from settled how much you can infer the amount of soft tissue on the skull from rugosity. Abelisaurids certainly would suggest a more tight fitting skin but other theropods have much less rugosity.Duane Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14467779935085970909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-54108849964701448772016-05-11T07:14:07.710-07:002016-05-11T07:14:07.710-07:00Um, Duan, I think your Hellhound Rex hypothesis ha...Um, Duan, I think your Hellhound Rex hypothesis has been wrecked.<br /><br />http://randomdinos.deviantart.com/journal/Things-I-learned-from-the-SVP-2015-archive-604855997<br /><br />So they theropods in general probably did not have mammal or even lizard lips, but something more in line with bird skin lips. D-mannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-56616263835477986572016-05-11T04:09:40.608-07:002016-05-11T04:09:40.608-07:00The one problem I see is that Smilodon & frien...The one problem I see is that <i>Smilodon</i> & friends are the only saber-toothed carnivores that lack matching bone flanges on the lower jaw. <i>Thylacosmilus</i> shows that length isn't a problem; <i>Homotherium</i> has them; so why are they absent in <i>Smilodon</i>?<br /><br /><i>Where does the argument that teeth need to be moist all the time come from anyway?</i><br /><br />Teeth do apparently become brittle when they dry out. That's why ivory from forest elephants is considered higher quality than that from savanna elephants.<br /><br />However, they obviously can't demineralize from contact with air!David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-62960436436191275452016-05-10T14:36:01.826-07:002016-05-10T14:36:01.826-07:00I asked Spinosaurus the fisher what he thought of ...I asked Spinosaurus the fisher what he thought of your post. He said that it is likely that the lips covered the canines like you said, though he did say the the lips looks more deliberate than natural in your artistic rendition of a Smilodon.<br /><br />Also, since he have carnivorans down, how would sparrasodonts, hyeanodontids, gorgonopsids, and therocephalians protect them? The first 2 are not related to cats and the last 2 are not even true mammals at all, so would their canines be protected. Also, when you say they can srcunch up their lips to reveal their sabers to inflict the killing blow, does this mean that when they snarl, they would resemble those "old" reconstructions with baring teeth, and one final note, what would the face look like in side view with this form?D-mannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-69789764524035620142016-05-10T14:12:59.805-07:002016-05-10T14:12:59.805-07:00"How dare you compare sabertooth lips to the ..."How dare you compare sabertooth lips to the lips of artificially selected dogs and cats? Stop it."<br /><br />I don't think your problem is in having a dissenting view (as I've said, it's why I'm here) - it's that you can be needlessly antagonistic about it. Given my comment about tyrannosaur lips, I suddenly find myself tied into a strawman comment, and wondering if I'm expected to be swayed by it.<br /><br />But nope, not gonna stop thinking that bloodhounds aren't a great analogy for tyrannosaurs! Sabretooths are a slightly different prospect, but I'd still side with Dr. Day and Ville's final comment. Demonstration of plasticity is one thing, but the main purpose of some dog breeds - barely able to walk or breathe - seems to be demonstration of how rubbish humans can be at manipulating or imitating selection pressures on that plasticity.<br /><br />Still looking forward to the next post, though!Warren JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11743987856127631574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-49936795403224675342016-05-10T11:26:33.852-07:002016-05-10T11:26:33.852-07:00*3) The problem lies in that we just don't hav...<br />*3) The problem lies in that we just don't have anything like Smilodon around. Most of the sabertooths tend to be armed with the moderate size canines that can be seen for example in homotherines. They barely if at all extend beyond the mandible, and as you said tend to be comparable in length to those of clouded leopard. In clouded leopard they appear to be long enough to produce visible bulge in lower lip. I don't think this differs significantly from what would have been the case in moderate sabertoothed carnivorans. As the sabers grew through ontogeny the teeth pushed against the lower lip and the gum and tissues being adaptive formed small dimple or pocket where the canine fit snugly. This tends to be the case in living carnivores. Moderate sabertooths just took it just a bit further.<br />For smilodon such arrangement seems unlikely. maybe in it's case the canine pushed beyond the margin of lower lip causing visible droop on the lip line as it did so.<br /><br />I don't see any problem of the relatively tiny bit of the canine that was hanging below the mandible. After all we have things like water deer and other sabertoothed ruminants that do just fine with well exposed canines. No lubrication needed.<br />Where does the argument that teeth need to be moist all the time come from anyway? Just curious. even if the keeping the teeth moist was necessary general production of saliva and gravity would take care of taht in any case. besides the liquid isn't just flowing in the surface of the tooth it's inside it's whole structure.<br /><br /><br />One last thing regarding droopy lips in domestic breeds. Yes they can do that and many other unfortunately detrimental things thanks to the fact that we have relieved them from all the natural stresses and pressures that they would be normally under. There's probably a very good reason why no such droopy lips exist in any living wild canivoran.Ville Sinkkonenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03930002120045240811noreply@blogger.com