tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post2453799724737305159..comments2024-03-18T02:43:22.233-07:00Comments on Antediluvian Salad: Entering the Nth Dimension of Terra-Forming, Macro-Plant Scavenging, Hive-Minded HadrosaursDuane Nashhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14467779935085970909noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-78409133980066547902017-12-09T21:19:53.322-08:002017-12-09T21:19:53.322-08:00Duane, an awesome piece of work. Can you find anyt...Duane, an awesome piece of work. Can you find anything in your thesis that contradicts the picture I have drawn in https://www.scribd.com/document/319906948/The-Solution-to-the-Ice-Age-Extinctions ?<br /><br />Because the CO2 level was so much higher, the pace of life was faster then, yet there was no grass to speak of. So the big, but relatively short, herbivores would either have to traverse a larger terrain or find a different means. You have found an explanation.<br />Forrest Bishopnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-41991185466593500652017-12-04T17:49:58.469-08:002017-12-04T17:49:58.469-08:00OMG! Tripped over this amazing, fantastic, though...OMG! Tripped over this amazing, fantastic, thought-provoking essay by sheer happenstance from something on the Vox Day blog: ( http://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/12/mailvox-do-not-correct-me.html ). Am recently more of a geology (and catastrophism v. uniformitarianism) hound than a dino hound (and lately, oddly, up to my eyeballs in learning about the electric universe: also fascinating!) but I was a dino hound years ago. I am ASTONISHED and amazed and excited by what you've suggested! I'm off now to read the rest of your stuff, but wanted to let you know how impressed and ... lured back ... I am by this essay! BRAVO!!Avalanchenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-15308801111032468702017-10-16T18:18:12.065-07:002017-10-16T18:18:12.065-07:00I remember seeing in some of your older posts abou...I remember seeing in some of your older posts about sauropods and large ceratopsids knocking down trees while foraging - something that would benefits renewal of fresher greenery and other herbivores attracted to the new growth, including hadrosaurs when they seek rotting wood for their colonies. I don't remember if you've mentioned this before, but I'm pretty sure I've seen a lot of hadrosaur/iguanodont species coexisting with those of sauropods and/or ceratopsids in various formations. I was wondering if it might be possible for hadrosaur nesting behavior to be interrelated with "deforesting" behaviors of sauropods and ceratopsids? Or even their nesting behavior - perhaps colonies of hadrosaurs often associated (or even intermingled) with those of sauropods/ceratopsids ?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07099663673798466361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-81097712361426917862017-10-13T13:19:43.964-07:002017-10-13T13:19:43.964-07:00Thanks for commenting Anthony. Comments like this ...Thanks for commenting Anthony. Comments like this make it all worthwhile. Hope you get into an old redwood forest, they are special places.Duane Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14467779935085970909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-81447540681633181022017-10-11T10:43:14.517-07:002017-10-11T10:43:14.517-07:00Hi Duane, I'm a big fan of your writing and mu...Hi Duane, I'm a big fan of your writing and musings. This one is as good as anything I've seen written about dinosaurs behavior. I find myself thinking about dinosaur behavior a great deal more than I would have Without your work, I suspect. I have noticed the complex workings of dead trees from time to time and seen bears and pigs going after grubs and such and even seen a herd of cows chewing up the remains of a rotten stump that a neighbor had pulled up. When I read this I found myself nodding away because, of course, I'd seen this before. My biggest difficulty is conceiving the enormous amount of wood in an old-growth forest. I've never been in one myself. Something to put on my to-do list.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18110961725490733719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-85936836575102665082017-10-09T06:06:08.609-07:002017-10-09T06:06:08.609-07:00Hm can’t say that I’ve heard of that one. It would...Hm can’t say that I’ve heard of that one. It would be interesting if we found a nest which showed convincing evidence of brood parasitism in dinosaurs, and its not impossible either, so I’m keeping my fingers crossed.Beetle Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06313879056602866312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-58041439445016836142017-10-07T19:50:42.365-07:002017-10-07T19:50:42.365-07:00@Beetle Boy yeah that was the one, thanks. But I a...@Beetle Boy yeah that was the one, thanks. But I also seem to remember some mixed up nest? or collection of crocodilian eggs with dinosaur eggs? am I imagining that one?Duane Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14467779935085970909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-58847087079722544192017-10-07T10:02:26.907-07:002017-10-07T10:02:26.907-07:00I think an oviraptorid nest was found containing o...I think an oviraptorid nest was found containing oviraptorid eggs, but also 2 small troodontid skulls covered in scraps of egg material - so I think there was some suggestion that there may have been brood parasitism going on there. Honestly, I'm not convinced by that particular find, but I do think that the possibility of brood parasitism is a very likely one with dinosaurs.Beetle Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06313879056602866312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-37182588752822509542017-10-07T09:44:48.495-07:002017-10-07T09:44:48.495-07:00@Khaili Hey thanks. We can talk about peer review ...@Khaili Hey thanks. We can talk about peer review via email if you want. Let me know if you have any questions about open science.<br /><br />@Beetle Boy I remember that suggestion somewhere else but for a theropod nest if I remember?Duane Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14467779935085970909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-28593989108096032682017-10-07T00:06:11.837-07:002017-10-07T00:06:11.837-07:00This makes me wonder if there were any hadrosaurid...This makes me wonder if there were any hadrosaurids that practiced brood parasitism - not actually caring for their young at all, just laying their eggs in the nesting grounds of other hadrosaurids species.Beetle Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06313879056602866312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-60294945158671767762017-10-06T14:58:13.980-07:002017-10-06T14:58:13.980-07:00Sorry for not commenting in a while Duane. I just ...Sorry for not commenting in a while Duane. I just started college so I don't have too much free time (besides being lazy and sleeping), but I read your posts regardless.<br /><br />But I'd like to say that this is by far my favorite post from you as of yet. It's not as sensationalist as you say it is, and although it's somewhat speculate it makes PERFECT sense and clears up soooo many questions that many if not all of us have had for years.<br /><br />And this has so many implications for the ecology and evolution of the macro and micro fauna/flora of Hadrosaur bearing ecosystems. So much I don't even know where to begin.<br /><br />And I believe Andrea Cau pointed this out a few posts ago, but can you please make a peer reviewed paper? I know you said how restricting and monotonous they are (which I also agree with), but that's the major way the scientific community works. You seriously need to rethink it, because it could really escalate you in the paleo community and bring a whole flock of people. And I know without a doubt that several other researchers and scientists would gladly help you with it. Your work is worth the fine print.Iris-Katyayanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06188961246186305190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-91802376324273918042017-10-06T09:55:31.771-07:002017-10-06T09:55:31.771-07:00@Brian L Sorry I forgo to mention your query about...@Brian L Sorry I forgo to mention your query about ankylosaurs. Yes I do think ankylosaurs would have profited from hadrosaur colonies. I think they would have relished dung, eggs (esp rotten ones), maybe even scavenged and "cleaned up a bit" for the colony. More on ankylosaurs in the not too distance future.Duane Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14467779935085970909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-64226504337547938392017-10-06T09:50:06.145-07:002017-10-06T09:50:06.145-07:00@The Eurypterid the "kaiju hive-mind" is...@The Eurypterid the "kaiju hive-mind" is a reference to Pacific Rim. For me personally I like the analogy, even if it is patently sensationalistic. It lets us think of dinosaurs more in a mindset of animals that had to sequester huge amounts of resources, go through multiple ontogimorphs, invest huge amounts in nesting resources, and were large and spectacularly adorned and weaponized - these same attributes are found in various kaiju. It is certainly a difference in degree but not necessarily type and I think an interesting example of nature imitating art - which the art was initially inspired by the nature (kaiju always having a strong dinosaurian influence). Yes it is intentionally sensational but I think it serves a greater purpose of thinking of these animals in new and different ways. Not merely as "cows of the Cretaceous" or whatever…<br /><br />Point taken regarding wildebeests. Indeed there does seem to be a tipping point where herds of any type reach a size where a single leader or band of leaders falls away to more of a hive-like collective intelligence.<br /><br />@BrianL On other colony-nesting dinosaurs? For simplicities sake I focused on hadrosaurs because I could at least point to "look this might be why they are chewing up rotten wood." I honestly have not put to much effort into looking at other colonial nesters if there are any clues pointing us in this direction. Protoceratops is not very massive and afaik the colonies of various par avian theropods are not truly massive… sauropods are interesting because the size difference between adult and hatchling is so profound. They may have fertilized the areas around colonies just because of the size of their "offerings" even if they were, as it looks now, more of the lay 'em and leave 'em style. I don't think we can say anything concrete about derived ceratopsid nesting habits… that seems to be wide open. Of course it is very possible some hadrosaurs were not colony forming...Duane Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14467779935085970909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-54046868707578001682017-10-06T06:51:06.079-07:002017-10-06T06:51:06.079-07:00I think this is probably the best post you have ev...I think this is probably the best post you have ever written even if I agree that it need not have been as sensationalist. Do you think this same strategy also applied to other large colony-nesting dinosaurs or do you suppose this was limited to hadrosaurs? What about, say, sauropods and ceratopsids? Also, do you still see (some) ankylosaurs as adapted to take advantage of mega-colonies such as the ones you propose?BrianLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17880867575515761505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-54250404242595563852017-10-06T04:46:50.242-07:002017-10-06T04:46:50.242-07:00I think the repeats of 'kaiju hive-mind' a...I think the repeats of 'kaiju hive-mind' are a teensy bit sensational, but a colonial lifestyle for hadrosaurs seems pretty reasonable. A point in favour is that large modern herbivores already use hive intelligence- wildebeest herds cross rivers safely by probing the opposite bank with a growing number of animals, then using numbers to wear down the nearest possible exit into a safe, easy passage, all the while deterring predators with their numbers.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06537056479288460350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-76747984404366366582017-10-05T21:46:23.118-07:002017-10-05T21:46:23.118-07:00I quite like how you look at the supposed "we...I quite like how you look at the supposed "weaknesses" and "impossibilities" of animals and flip it into an evolutionary adaptation.<br /><br />Because evolution only works if a species can actually survive.<br /><br />"Carnosaurs/terror bird jaws were too weak to kill prey or eat bone" => shows that they were killing large prey and eating bone in methods that actually need low bite forces <br /><br />"T. rex isn't agile" => not a problem if you are using straight-on charges to ambush prey <br /><br />"Microraptor cannot be nocturnal because iridescence" => Microraptor wasn't analogous to iridescent birds anyways, but it's ecology was a lot closer to iridescent stealth-hunting snakes<br /><br />"Elasmosaur necks were a weak point" => shows that such a huge neck is actually muscular and strong, and helps with stealth-hunting and tussling with prey<br /><br />And now hadrosaurs....BKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03759189747932749283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-18662272809909825062017-10-05T09:38:32.003-07:002017-10-05T09:38:32.003-07:00@Bk Jeong In his book Horner also spends a lot of ...@Bk Jeong In his book Horner also spends a lot of time on Orodromeus which appears to have nested by Maisaura, also appears to be evidence of Troodon type eggs (?) & remains, some azhdarchid stuff, tyrannosaur teeth. ALso the invertebrates Karen Chin has been documenting for some time. It may have been a humming place.<br /><br />@WilliamBailey Thanks. "Making hadrosaurs interesting is a most impressive feat and a necessary one" I'm flattered.<br /><br />@Nick Fonseca Regarding emperor penguins and seabirds in general. It is interesting and something I've thought a lot about comparing hadrosaurs to seabirds. One of the challenges is that seabirds can go idle and fast for a while because their foodstuff is comparably richer than a herbivores, even hadrosaurs augmenting their diet w/fungi and crab (yummy) is not as rich as krill, squid, and oily fish. Another question I would poise with herbivores going for long spells without food (a month or two) is that this might have deleterious effects on their gut flora. Of course they could probably scarf down some dung piles to repopulate… If mates did trade off duties I am leaning to something on the order of a week or two not several months. Another possibility is that there was no partner trade off, the collective defense of enough adults in the colony at any one time might be good defense. This aspect gets into notions of shared genes among colony members.<br />Duane Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14467779935085970909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-22240206103171846512017-10-05T09:03:19.612-07:002017-10-05T09:03:19.612-07:00I agree, seeing the "hindrances" as stre...I agree, seeing the "hindrances" as strengths makes more sense. By that logic any adaptation should be considered a hindrance. I like the idea of thinking about the ecosystem as a system not just a backdrop for dinosaurs to run around in. Nick Fonsecahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18280007564769043641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-38533141951379183222017-10-05T05:10:20.432-07:002017-10-05T05:10:20.432-07:00Wow! One of your best articles in terms of argumen...Wow! One of your best articles in terms of argumentative strength and also in terms of creating a larger, believable picture. I also greatly appreciate how you see those "hindrances" as strengths, which is quite more plausible on an evolutionary standpoint. Of course, you still have your style but I find it better used in this article. The form serves the content. Bravo. ;) <br /><br />PS: making hadrosaurs interesting is a most impressive feat and a necessary one. ;)Guillaume Babeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06589225800590147697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-36402827098351595132017-10-04T20:37:40.473-07:002017-10-04T20:37:40.473-07:00@Bl Jong If you read digging dinosaurs by Jack Hor...@Bl Jong If you read digging dinosaurs by Jack Horner that is exactly what he found. <br />Duane Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14467779935085970909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-33667399634684329072017-10-04T15:52:33.071-07:002017-10-04T15:52:33.071-07:00Wow...
If this was the case, ecosystems around ha...Wow...<br /><br />If this was the case, ecosystems around hadrosaur colonies could have been insanely complex. We would have tyrannosaurs and dromaeosaurs taking up hunting sites around these colonies: small enantiornithines, small ornithischians, etc eating the fungi and vegetation that grew from the dung; etc...BKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03759189747932749283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-74680003635147305552017-10-04T13:31:35.334-07:002017-10-04T13:31:35.334-07:00Very interesting idea! I appreciate the notion of ...Very interesting idea! I appreciate the notion of seeing herding and long gestation not as hindrances to survival rather as being key to survival. <br /><br />Another colony to consider would be the emperor penguin. Apparently after egg laying the females go off to sea and forage for 2 months to replenish their energy stores. In the mean time, the males stay with the egg balanced on their feet for approximately 64 days until the egg hatches. All told the males may fast for almost 115 days after arriving at the nesting site. That is almost 4 months with no food. "I learned that from reading a children's animal book to my 6 year old haha." I wonder if there is the possibility for half of the adult herd and part of the non mating herd to leave the nesting site for part of the nesting phase to alleviate food shortages? Nick Fonsecahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18280007564769043641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-28393269438019497662017-10-04T11:20:04.061-07:002017-10-04T11:20:04.061-07:00I'm glad you got something from it Beetle Boy....I'm glad you got something from it Beetle Boy.Duane Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14467779935085970909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8161161431451849208.post-50844983518229111932017-10-04T11:02:18.313-07:002017-10-04T11:02:18.313-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Beetle Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06313879056602866312noreply@blogger.com